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tomcas

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:35 pm
Post subject: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW engine
Archived from groups: alt>autos>turbocharged (more info?)

My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a Mercedes on
an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have any
experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy? We need to know
the basic concept and pitfalls of such a retrofit.

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clayton

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 17



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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my initial thought would be it could be a tad bit big for the motor and
figuring out the right pulley ratio could be a pain

then i would guess you prolly woun't be able to run a whole lot of boost on
there
and finally if your going that far maybe look into fuel injection as well
do a search for megasquirt it might be of use to you

"tomcas" wrote in message

 > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a Mercedes
on
 > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have any
 > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy? We need to
know
 > the basic concept and pitfalls of such a retrofit.
 >
 >

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lifespeed

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Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"tomcas" wrote in message ...
 > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a Mercedes on
 > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have any
 > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy? We need to know
 > the basic concept and pitfalls of such a retrofit.

How will the air-cooled engine deal with the extra heat? What you
have described does not sound particularly well thought through.

Lifespeed
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tomcas

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:30 am
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"lifespeed" wrote in message


...
  > > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a
Mercedes on
  > > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have
any
  > > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy? We need to
know
  > > the basic concept and pitfalls of such a retrofit.
 > How will the air-cooled engine deal with the extra heat?

I have no idea.

  >What you have described does not sound particularly well thought
through.

That's why I'm asking. I was hoping to find someone with actual experience
in this area.

 > Lifespeed
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lifespeed

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Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"tomcas" wrote in message ...
   > > > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a
 > Mercedes on
   > > > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have
 > any
   > > > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy? We need to
 > know
   > > > the basic concept and pitfalls of such a retrofit.
  > > How will the air-cooled engine deal with the extra heat?
 >
 > I have no idea.
 > That's why I'm asking. I was hoping to find someone with actual experience
 > in this area.

The people who build and abuse sandrails may be the most familiar with
hotrodding the VeeDubb. I'm pretty sure there are some strength and
cooling issues. You might have better luck in a sandrail group, with
such an engine-specific question.

People here can tell you how to properly size and install a turbo on
your engine. Engine lifespan is another story . . .

Lifespeed
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MeatballTurbo

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Since: Jun 02, 2004
Posts: 365



(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:24 am
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article ,
spouted forth into alt.autos.turbocharged...
 > The people who build and abuse sandrails may be the most familiar with
 > hotrodding the VeeDubb. I'm pretty sure there are some strength and
 > cooling issues. You might have better luck in a sandrail group, with
 > such an engine-specific question.
 >
Superchargers don't have as much a problem with heat as turbos do. Sure
they can get warm, but they don't get massively hot like an exhaust gas
spun turbo
--
Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.bouncing-czechs.com" target="_blank">http://www.bouncing-czechs.com</a>
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lifespeed

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Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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MeatballTurbo wrote in message ...
 > Superchargers don't have as much a problem with heat as turbos do. Sure
 > they can get warm, but they don't get massively hot like an exhaust gas
 > spun turbo

I was referring to engine-generated heat due to added power. The
intake charge heat can also become an issue with enough boost.

Lifespeed
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Terry Hollis

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Since: Dec 11, 2003
Posts: 3



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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MeatballTurbo wrote:


  >> The people who build and abuse sandrails may be the most familiar
  >> with hotrodding the VeeDubb. I'm pretty sure there are some
  >> strength and cooling issues. You might have better luck in a
  >> sandrail group, with such an engine-specific question.
  >>
 > Superchargers don't have as much a problem with heat as turbos do.
 > Sure they can get warm, but they don't get massively hot like an
 > exhaust gas spun turbo

It's not the supercharger that has the heat problem, it's the air-cooled
engine which will run much hotter if it's super-charged.

--
Regards - Terry Hollis, Auckland, New Zealand

replace "nospam" with "terry.hollis" to reply
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John McKenzie

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:44 am
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

tomcas wrote:
 >
 > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a Mercedes on
 > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have any
 > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy?

There used to be a guy in Aus that had one in a beetle, with a diy
supercharger running 30psi boost. He ran straight methanol to help keep
it cool (it sucks so much heat out of the air as it's delivered into the
inlet tract, that it can actually offset some of the extra heat from the
extra heat energy a motor will see when boosted - it's far from a
'secret' and that 'side effect' is not exactly ignored by racers). He
also set up some agricultural spraying nozzles, to 'mist' the outside of
the barrels from somewhere in the engine bay. I don't know the person at
all, the thing was so 'interesting' that it made it into a regular
column in Australia's biggest 'hot rod' style magazine. Methanol may not
be unusual for higher boost stuff, but this thing was a streeter, not a
trailer queen..

In terms of the extra cooling afforded by running on methanol, our
biggest annual 'revhead' gathering has a burnout comp and it's not
uncommon for people to cook the motor. Big power output (needs to be in
top at high rpm to be competitive at all) but stuff all airflow through
the rad even with electric fans, unlike what you'd have if the car was
doing if the back wheels were hooked up is a big problem. Long story
short, more than a few entrants have run their cars on methanol for the
burnout comp and pretty much everyone who's switched wouldn't switch
back with a gun to their head, it makes so much difference.


Admittedly it's not a very practical or cheap option for a streeter -
apart from the cost per litre (sorry gallon if you are in the USA) it's
optimal a/f ratio is much lower than gasoline based fuels - so for an
otherwise identical engine, say one on high octane race gasoline - you'd
have to supply around double the volume of fuel for the same quantity of
air ingested. So twice as much per gallon to buy, and twice as much fuel
for the same conditions - so 4 times the running cost.

Obviously those steps only need to be considered based on the
boost/power levels you might be aiming for. It's probably not going to
be mandatory on a more modest boosted setup.

Other than that, a few guys on the blowthruturbo list have discussed a
book called 'turbomania' . I haven't got it, nor have I read it, but
it's apparently aimed at the vw flat four specifically. It's also
probably the best book around that discusses setting up weber carbs for
blowthrough use - and non vw people who are pursuing a webered turbo
setup have praised it big time.

I realise that you are asking abt a supercharger not a turbo, and that
that also makes it 90% likely you'd be going drawthrough , but
considering the praise the book has gotten, if there _was_ a reference
that covered all the other considerations (cam, carb setup, extra heat,
compression ratio - you name it) as they relate specifically to vw
engines.

I don't have the author's name - but can check various saved mails from
the mailing list and get back to you if it's any help.

I've seen a bunch of pics of bajas that were fitted with a second oil
cooler, often remote mounted a little (on the roof in one pic I've seen)
and I _think_ some sort of mod to enable more oil to be fitted in the
sump - whether it's through a bolt on or a tig welded extension - not
sure specifically. This is to increase oil capacity (which means it can
deal with more heat energy without the extra cooler - same heat energy
be absorbed by more oil volume means it raises the temp less - and short
of a land speed record, you are unlikely to be at full throttle for more
than 15 seconds because you'd be at the end of the 1/4 or up to a decent
speed in top gear - so it can hold off the rise in temp with more volume
enough that it won't get dangerous before you are backing off the
throttle) and the second cooler can remove more heat - so a sort of two
pronged attack. Now this was for non boosted engines used in harsher
conditions, a lot of it would be able to be taken advantage of in a
setup like you are looking in to.


--
John McKenzie

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lifespeed

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Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:44 am
Post subject: methanol ( was Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to a [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John McKenzie wrote in message ...
 > There used to be a guy in Aus that had one in a beetle, with a diy
 > supercharger running 30psi boost. He ran straight methanol to help keep
 > it cool (it sucks so much heat out of the air as it's delivered into the
 > inlet tract, that it can actually offset some of the extra heat from the
 > extra heat energy a motor will see when boosted - it's far from a
 > 'secret' and that 'side effect' is not exactly ignored by racers). He
 > also set up some agricultural spraying nozzles, to 'mist' the outside of
 > the barrels from somewhere in the engine bay. I don't know the person at
 > all, the thing was so 'interesting' that it made it into a regular
 > column in Australia's biggest 'hot rod' style magazine. Methanol may not
 > be unusual for higher boost stuff, but this thing was a streeter, not a
 > trailer queen..
 > John McKenzie

Yes, methanol is great stuff, but not very practical for everyday use.
The best, but far from cheapest, way to implement methanol in a more
practical wayd is with stage injection using a second set of injectors
to blow in methanol only under high boost. Much better for the engine
(methanol washes oil from the cylinder walls and valve guides) and
more affordable. Just requires a second fuel system and a computer
capable of staged injection. It is possible to precisely increase the
gasoline/methanol ratio with increasing boost.

Lifespeed
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clayton

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 17



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger to air cooled VW en [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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it's common to adapt the 911 cooling fan and shrouds to vw engines may want
to look into it as a means of helping
keep your cool
"John McKenzie" wrote in message

 > tomcas wrote:
  > >
  > > My brother has this dream of putting an Eaton supercharger off a
Mercedes on
  > > an air cooled VW Baja bug. It's a carburated engine. Does anyone have
any
  > > experience with a conversion of this type or is this crazy?
 >
 > There used to be a guy in Aus that had one in a beetle, with a diy
 > supercharger running 30psi boost. He ran straight methanol to help keep
 > it cool (it sucks so much heat out of the air as it's delivered into the
 > inlet tract, that it can actually offset some of the extra heat from the
 > extra heat energy a motor will see when boosted - it's far from a
 > 'secret' and that 'side effect' is not exactly ignored by racers). He
 > also set up some agricultural spraying nozzles, to 'mist' the outside of
 > the barrels from somewhere in the engine bay. I don't know the person at
 > all, the thing was so 'interesting' that it made it into a regular
 > column in Australia's biggest 'hot rod' style magazine. Methanol may not
 > be unusual for higher boost stuff, but this thing was a streeter, not a
 > trailer queen..
 >
 > In terms of the extra cooling afforded by running on methanol, our
 > biggest annual 'revhead' gathering has a burnout comp and it's not
 > uncommon for people to cook the motor. Big power output (needs to be in
 > top at high rpm to be competitive at all) but stuff all airflow through
 > the rad even with electric fans, unlike what you'd have if the car was
 > doing if the back wheels were hooked up is a big problem. Long story
 > short, more than a few entrants have run their cars on methanol for the
 > burnout comp and pretty much everyone who's switched wouldn't switch
 > back with a gun to their head, it makes so much difference.
 >
 >
 > Admittedly it's not a very practical or cheap option for a streeter -
 > apart from the cost per litre (sorry gallon if you are in the USA) it's
 > optimal a/f ratio is much lower than gasoline based fuels - so for an
 > otherwise identical engine, say one on high octane race gasoline - you'd
 > have to supply around double the volume of fuel for the same quantity of
 > air ingested. So twice as much per gallon to buy, and twice as much fuel
 > for the same conditions - so 4 times the running cost.
 >
 > Obviously those steps only need to be considered based on the
 > boost/power levels you might be aiming for. It's probably not going to
 > be mandatory on a more modest boosted setup.
 >
 > Other than that, a few guys on the blowthruturbo list have discussed a
 > book called 'turbomania' . I haven't got it, nor have I read it, but
 > it's apparently aimed at the vw flat four specifically. It's also
 > probably the best book around that discusses setting up weber carbs for
 > blowthrough use - and non vw people who are pursuing a webered turbo
 > setup have praised it big time.
 >
 > I realise that you are asking abt a supercharger not a turbo, and that
 > that also makes it 90% likely you'd be going drawthrough , but
 > considering the praise the book has gotten, if there _was_ a reference
 > that covered all the other considerations (cam, carb setup, extra heat,
 > compression ratio - you name it) as they relate specifically to vw
 > engines.
 >
 > I don't have the author's name - but can check various saved mails from
 > the mailing list and get back to you if it's any help.
 >
 > I've seen a bunch of pics of bajas that were fitted with a second oil
 > cooler, often remote mounted a little (on the roof in one pic I've seen)
 > and I _think_ some sort of mod to enable more oil to be fitted in the
 > sump - whether it's through a bolt on or a tig welded extension - not
 > sure specifically. This is to increase oil capacity (which means it can
 > deal with more heat energy without the extra cooler - same heat energy
 > be absorbed by more oil volume means it raises the temp less - and short
 > of a land speed record, you are unlikely to be at full throttle for more
 > than 15 seconds because you'd be at the end of the 1/4 or up to a decent
 > speed in top gear - so it can hold off the rise in temp with more volume
 > enough that it won't get dangerous before you are backing off the
 > throttle) and the second cooler can remove more heat - so a sort of two
 > pronged attack. Now this was for non boosted engines used in harsher
 > conditions, a lot of it would be able to be taken advantage of in a
 > setup like you are looking in to.
 >
 >
 > --
 > John McKenzie
 >







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John McKenzie

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: methanol ( was Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

lifespeed wrote:
 >

  > > There used to be a guy in Aus that had one in a beetle, with a diy
  > > supercharger running 30psi boost. He ran straight methanol to help keep
  > > it cool (it sucks so much heat out of the air as it's delivered into the
  > > inlet tract, that it can actually offset some of the extra heat from the
  > > extra heat energy a motor will see when boosted - it's far from a
  > > 'secret' and that 'side effect' is not exactly ignored by racers). He
  > > also set up some agricultural spraying nozzles, to 'mist' the outside of
  > > the barrels from somewhere in the engine bay. I don't know the person at
  > > all, the thing was so 'interesting' that it made it into a regular
  > > column in Australia's biggest 'hot rod' style magazine. Methanol may not
  > > be unusual for higher boost stuff, but this thing was a streeter, not a
  > > trailer queen..
  > > John McKenzie
 >
 > Yes, methanol is great stuff, but not very practical for everyday use.
 > The best, but far from cheapest, way to implement methanol in a more
 > practical wayd is with stage injection using a second set of injectors
 > to blow in methanol only under high boost. Much better for the engine
 > (methanol washes oil from the cylinder walls and valve guides) and
 > more affordable. Just requires a second fuel system and a computer
 > capable of staged injection. It is possible to precisely increase the
 > gasoline/methanol ratio with increasing boost.
 >

Serious question (which is also part of the reason I too qualified it
with the comments it was impractical for most) - how do most injectors
hold up to methanol? The guys here (that I know and I don't know them
all obviously) using methanol for comps flush the system with a gasoline
based fuel and run it till it belches black smoke, in an effort to get
longer life from the fuel system. I don't know if it's an old wives
tale, or how any of this would apply to efi injectors - are they safe
for sue with methanol universally?


--
John McKenzie

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$LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost $USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost
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lifespeed

External


Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: methanol ( was Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

John McKenzie wrote in message ...
 > Serious question (which is also part of the reason I too qualified it
 > with the comments it was impractical for most) - how do most injectors
 > hold up to methanol? The guys here (that I know and I don't know them
 > all obviously) using methanol for comps flush the system with a gasoline
 > based fuel and run it till it belches black smoke, in an effort to get
 > longer life from the fuel system. I don't know if it's an old wives
 > tale, or how any of this would apply to efi injectors - are they safe
 > for sue with methanol universally?

Yes, methanol is very corrosive. Aluminum or rubber fuel system parts
are a no-no. One must use a stainless steel tank and lines. I use
AC/Delco injectors (for gasoline) but they are rated for methanol.
Most quality aftermarket injectors and fuel pumps can hold up to
methanol.

Definitely not a fuel that is universally fuel system safe. A
dedicated system works fine and doesn't require flushing.

Lifespeed
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Refinish King

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Since: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 208



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:17 am
Post subject: Re: methanol ( was Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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When you buy injectors:

GM, Ford and Chrysler make their popular engines and most models in FFV
(Flexable Fuel Vehivles) with Ford being the most popular. The fuel lines on
the Contours are Stainless, and the rubber lines are actually made of
Aeroquip Teflon Braided lines. So the injectors I'm sure are different.

My projece of building a stroked Ford 351 and a Chevy 350 1 Ton tow trucks,
with twin turbos, with EFI and Mass Air Flow is taking me on the journey of
all this research, hence. You see me in all these news groups. I already
know I will need alcohol injection, either Methane or Isopropyl to stop
detonation on hills, if there would be any.

The injection would be controlled by the knock retard sensor and a seperate
mister, like an NOS plate under each throttle body to mist the alcohol.
Refinish King
"John McKenzie" wrote in message

 > lifespeed wrote:
  > >

...
   > > > There used to be a guy in Aus that had one in a beetle, with a diy
   > > > supercharger running 30psi boost. He ran straight methanol to help
keep
   > > > it cool (it sucks so much heat out of the air as it's delivered into
the
   > > > inlet tract, that it can actually offset some of the extra heat from
the
   > > > extra heat energy a motor will see when boosted - it's far from a
   > > > 'secret' and that 'side effect' is not exactly ignored by racers). He
   > > > also set up some agricultural spraying nozzles, to 'mist' the outside
of
   > > > the barrels from somewhere in the engine bay. I don't know the person
at
   > > > all, the thing was so 'interesting' that it made it into a regular
   > > > column in Australia's biggest 'hot rod' style magazine. Methanol may
not
   > > > be unusual for higher boost stuff, but this thing was a streeter, not
a
   > > > trailer queen..
   > > > John McKenzie
  > >
  > > Yes, methanol is great stuff, but not very practical for everyday use.
  > > The best, but far from cheapest, way to implement methanol in a more
  > > practical wayd is with stage injection using a second set of injectors
  > > to blow in methanol only under high boost. Much better for the engine
  > > (methanol washes oil from the cylinder walls and valve guides) and
  > > more affordable. Just requires a second fuel system and a computer
  > > capable of staged injection. It is possible to precisely increase the
  > > gasoline/methanol ratio with increasing boost.
  > >
 >
 > Serious question (which is also part of the reason I too qualified it
 > with the comments it was impractical for most) - how do most injectors
 > hold up to methanol? The guys here (that I know and I don't know them
 > all obviously) using methanol for comps flush the system with a gasoline
 > based fuel and run it till it belches black smoke, in an effort to get
 > longer life from the fuel system. I don't know if it's an old wives
 > tale, or how any of this would apply to efi injectors - are they safe
 > for sue with methanol universally?
 >
 >
 > --
 > John McKenzie
 >







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lifespeed

External


Since: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 51



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:47 pm
Post subject: Re: methanol ( was Re: Retrofit Mercedes Eaton supercharger [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Refinish King" wrote in message ...
 > My projece of building a stroked Ford 351 and a Chevy 350 1 Ton tow trucks,
 > with twin turbos, with EFI and Mass Air Flow is taking me on the journey of
 > all this research, hence. You see me in all these news groups. I already
 > know I will need alcohol injection, either Methane or Isopropyl to stop
 > detonation on hills, if there would be any.
 >
 > The injection would be controlled by the knock retard sensor and a seperate
 > mister, like an NOS plate under each throttle body to mist the alcohol.
 > Refinish King

Good points on the FFV vehicles. Injectors aren't large enough for
hot rods, tho.

As to your idea of using dual fuels . . .
Some computers (Autronics is one) are capable of 'staged injection',
where the computer can transition smoothly from the gasoline injectors
to the alcohol injectors according to engine load (boost). This is a
very elegant and seamless solution. Burn cheap gasoline most of the
time, and inject the correct amount of methanol when you're at really
high boost. Much more precise than a NOS-plate drool valve. Also
properly mapped according to engine load. Knock sensors are a useful,
but don't use one to fuel-map your engine.

Lastly, it is more practical to utilize a MAP based EFI than MAF with
a turbo engine for several different reasons.

Lifespeed
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